Wargaming the Bad Guys

11/25/2018

If you watched Episode 109, you may recall the hint of a discussion between the two players running the 2nd SS Panzergrenadier Division about how to balance wargaming with the moral ugliness of history... particularly, the twisted legacy of the Waffen SS on the Eastern Front. Tom and Greg take a detour in their gaming conversation to ponder that question in this video. It's an uncomfortable, inescapable topic.

SS firing squad in the East.

16 Comments

Charlie Richardson

11/25/2018 05:39:28 pm

I keep getting a Video Unavailable message...
I was on a study tour of Germany and the Soviet Union in 1988 and a similar question was asked of (then) current German military folks about how they felt.
There was a bit of sidestepping but the overall answer was pride in the accomplishments of the individual soldier but disgust at the use of that soldier.

LWTV

11/26/2018 05:09:43 am

Charlie--Thanks, we've fixed that link and the video should now be available. It's a tricky question for anyone, but especially those who would have actually fought in the war. No easy answers when it comes to uncomfortable history.

Richard Phillips

11/26/2018 05:56:29 am

I think one point to remember is that wargaming is a great way to keep the history alive so that we never forget!

Rick

11/27/2018 02:31:07 pm

This is a really interesting discussion, as an English Bolt Action player I generally play either British Airborn or, in Eastern campaigns, the Chindits. However, I am building up a late war German army and did have qualms about including the SS - partly because they are so damn difficult to paint ;-) - but mainly because of the issues surrounding the SS. However, this video got me thinking and I've come to the conclusion that if you're going to 'do' history then you can't airbrush out the bits you don't like.

LWTV

11/28/2018 10:34:10 am

Well said, Rick. It's not possible to ignore the bad stuff--especially when there happens to be so much of it. And this discussion really does apply to far more than the SS in WW2.

Doug

12/2/2018 09:56:42 am

Good topic. As a wargamer. I'm not worried about the atrocities that the SS or Russians did to each other, it's the game that interests me. Can the Russians beat the German War Machine? That's the interesting aspect of wargaming. When it comes down to the human level, I think it was wrong. But I'm also not a soldier. I did, however, work with an ex military, and when we chatted about WWII, as he was an avid history buff, he said 'war is war and s**t happens and we can't do anything about it'
Keep up the good work guys...love it :D

Charlie Richardson

12/9/2018 03:38:30 pm

I also think you could say something similar about playing Confederates in the American Civil War... Sure, they were fighting for States' Rights, but some of those rights were to enslave people based on the color of their skin. Perhaps any vanquished foe is "evil"...

Nathaniel Hill

12/18/2018 07:04:02 am

I'm not bothered by the history in the context of war gaming. Someone has to play "the bad guy" and pretending that things like the SS didn't exist doesn't do anyone any favors. The dead are just as dead, and forgotten history teaches no lessons.

I'm sympathetic to the individuals on all sides of conflict. Somewhere between naive moral relativism and obstinate presentism, are myriad soldiers who wanted nothing more than to go home.

Great conversation, thanks for the video

Greg Brinsden

2/19/2019 12:39:51 am

Im a new subscriber and really enjoying what you guys are doing
I'm sure that atrocities happen on all sides to a certain degree and the victors always get to write the history
There is nothing nice about war
Wargamers normally fall into three categories, modeller, gamers and historical reenact or which you guys seem to be. We like to put ourselves in the role of the general in the predicaments that they faced. There is no moral conflict in that.
Great videos guys looking forward to seeing many more

Kurt Cybulski

7/4/2019 09:36:39 pm

New subscriber. Interesting discussion. I'm 100% gamer on computer. And I just watched an interesting video about should videogames allow people or be done from the POV of evil people. The overall consensus from the "side" I'm on is censorship of that is sad. My own opinion on it is, war is bad no matter what. I have to detach myself from the horrors of war, regardless of what side I play.

I will say I usually do not play the German side in WW2 games and WW1 games. It seems like a lot of people like to do that. I play the Russians on the East Front, the Allies on the Westfront, and the Entente powers in WW1.

Good website and great videos. Keep it up! (Still wondering when you might wargame Vienna 1683 :))

James Evans

9/5/2019 11:00:57 am

The main gaming issue about WW2 is that it is still in living memory and while around the people with those memories we must be respectful around them. When they are not around then it really does not matter which side you play. We don't get these kinds of discussions from players who play ancients. For crimes against humanity the Nazis are rank amateurs compared to the Romans and I have never heard anyone one ask if it is ethical to play with a Roman army.

Drew Mercer

11/8/2019 02:12:59 pm

I have wargamed for over 40 years. Many attrocities have occurred in the 4000+ years of warfare. I play to keep history alive, to learn and to educate. The last century especially brought attrocities to everyone's attention, mainly because of the development of cinematography and the media. Given the information we now know, who in their right mind would go "Over the top" on the First Day of The Somme. But equally, who would have allowed the Nazi regime to have gained the foothold it did in the late 1920s, early 1930s. The killing of innocent civilians and POWs has happened throughout history, we are just more aware now. So, to answer that tough question, I see playing SS units as an opportunity to recreate their military element and park the political side. I don't ignore it, or condone it, I just park it and remember the people that lost their lives or who were affected by it for a more appropriate time of reflection

Timothy Lee

7/14/2020 04:16:21 pm

I have been gearing for some WW2 post Covid. And, these games have really caught my eye. Can Greg tell me so of the sources he used to put these games together. Thanks.

Daniel

9/8/2020 02:36:24 pm

This question is very interessting for me because of 3 reasons:
1. I do only play very seldom because of time and money constraints
2. I am a relative young player (23)
3. I am from Germany and my great-uncle "fought" in Kharkov as a radioman

In my opinion wargamers should try change perspectives after the game. As we often play as the comander of the force we do not often think about other people who would be impacted by the decisions. Therefore, when during a game you bombarded a village in order to prepare for an attack mybe remeber after the game what this could have ment for the people living there. Personnaly, I like to "count" all the casualties after the game in order to realise how much life was lost in order to "win" the battle.
If you are reflective about those things you can play the SS without any doubts.

Tom

4/16/2022 10:08:50 am

I think this is a vital question to ask ourselves. Whilst this is a game to us, it was a matter of life and death to the people actually there, and still more to those unable to fight.

That said I don't think we do history favour by editing out the nasty bits- we need to respect the memory of those who suffered, and we need to learn the lessons, in order to avoid making the same mistakes.

Leigh link

9/25/2022 01:22:13 am

It's a personal decision- even understanding historical context can mean I don't want to play as the SS because I have a gut feeling that I don't want to. Not wanting to is not censorship. That said, I'm now about to create a video involving a game in the British/Canadian sector of Normandy, and it's nigh-impossible to ignore the presence of the SS, so here I am building and painting them.
I think context is king too- having SS minis as a way to round out an extensive collection, and using them within historical context, is a far cry from only collecting and playing as the Hitlerjugend because they were "the coolest". I've played against both types before and one of those always makes me raise my eyebrows a bit higher.

Wargaming the Bad Guys

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